Wings Over the Pyre - Oddities

Jan. 26th, 2006

06:39 am - Oddities

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Damn you, actaeaActaea, for tagging me on this one:

List five weird habits that you have, and then tag five other people to do the same.

Are there any habits I have that aren't weird? Though I think its safe to say that most of them are grounded in a barely-controlled OCD.

  1. I can not read an RPG without creating an echo of one of my favourite characters of all time, Vrai. This has resulted in there being an extended hyper-spacial lineage of the Vrai family, extending even so far as Guild Wars
  2. I don't eat cheese. Ever. Which may not be all that weird, except that I love Cheese-Its. Maybe its due to the fact that the cheese is wholly synthetic, or just a strange quirk of nature.
  3. I cannot pass up the opportunity to buy strange fusion music, which explains why there are so many things like Paul Anka covering Wonderwall on the Redoubt (though I have tryptophanHeather to thank for that specific album).
  4. I retain every piece of email I've sent since roughly the beginning of 2000, and would have it back to '92 or so if a hard drive failure hadn't taken out the files. This is not because I'm oft making reference to it, but simply because I'm a total packrat. Gmail was built for geeks like me.
  5. I design RPG settings. Constantly. At any given time, I'm comparing some piece of media with every mechanical system I know (and as anyone that's entered the Sanctum can tell you, there are roughly 40ft of shelves groaning with RPGs in here), looking for the best fit.

Now, let's see ... who shall I torment?

jailaLiberty Libertine, mandray76mandy, point5bEric the .5b, nyxsisnyxsis, and tryptophanHeather ... you're up.

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Current Mood: [mood icon] crazy
Current Music: Meat Loaf - Life Is A Lemon And I Want My Money Back
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From:[info]dwaleberry
Date:January 26th, 2006 03:18 pm (UTC)
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Hoi, I've got a question regarding your extensive RPG collection and the knowledge of the systems used therein: What RPG system do you think is the most realistic yet playable one out there?
As far as I've looked, I think that GURPS 4th edition does it to me, not only because of the easy-to-use 3d6 system, but because of the universal versatility of the system as a whole.
So, what do you think?
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From:[info]zamiel
Date:January 26th, 2006 09:38 pm (UTC)
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I think "realism" is a fool's game, you want the truth. The question that inevitably emerges is the obvious one: "Realistic to what model?"

I don't game to model realistic physics, or even realistic social interactions. Trying to do so runs into too much in the way of the assumption fallacy; the assumptions of the author may or may not be the same as mine, and the statistical spread of possibilities within the system is certainly not going to match the span of physics.

So, that leaves us more attainable goals: What genre are we trying to model? What form of literature? What mode? If I want to do high-flying derring-do like you find in superheroic comics, I probably should stay away from Hero 5, because despite the fact I can spec out a toaster in game mechanical terms, its a programming language, not a system that enables the kinds of interactions that I want to play out. For similar reasons, and ones of eye-bleeding aesthetics, I tend to avoid GURPS -- but likewise because the consistency I like in my designs was long eschewed by the authors. (Compare the point value of say, an Ogre autonomous tank and a special black ops guy. Now shudder.)

As such, I tend to prefer die-minimalist systems which have some significant narrative control mechanics built in. Wushu, Truth & Justice, Sorcerer, Nobilis, Capes, Over the Edge, and Fudge (when its in its more minimalist modes) all give me the kind of gaming experience I want these days; more focus on the way the story unfolds, mimicking heroic literature or surrealistic modern. Are they "realistic?" Not in the sense of modeling our reality, fuck no. Do they model the literature, film, and feel of the things I'm enjoying? Absolutely.

That's not to say that there's not a place for more mechanics-heavy designs, but those mechanics have to deal with something important to the way the story unfolds. Ars Magica's detailed structure which constrains magic and the stories that get told about it, or Jovian Chronicles' extensive handling of space combat and element construction.

So, I don't really have an answer for you, save the usual answer from one craftsman to another: Right tool for the right job.

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From:[info]dwaleberry
Date:January 26th, 2006 10:03 pm (UTC)
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I see. Thanks for the detailed answer. :)
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From:[info]zamiel
Date:January 26th, 2006 10:06 pm (UTC)
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I'm always happy to ramble on at length about game design. Its a failing. :)
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From:[info]rivet_geek
Date:January 26th, 2006 10:15 pm (UTC)
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I agree with pretty much what you've said, but with an addition:

I want the system that I use to produce results that meet my expectations. If I'm running in a genre that's supposed to be "realistic", I want the results to "feel" realistic. If I'm running a cinematic game, I want a cinematic feeling result.

It doesn't matter if the system itself is trying to model realism or not ("Okay, we've calculated the ballistic trajectory and taken into account loss of energy for the round, so know we just need to figure out the penetration needed based off of the average thickness of your character's skull") - only that the end result meets my expectations. If the system were to spray silly string and match the patterns to randomly drawn flash cards to get the result, and the results felt "right", I'd enjoy it.

But if the characters fumble too often or not often enough; PCs keel over too often from minor wounds, don't keel over often enough from major wounds (or vice versa!); if it's too hard or too easy to perform specific tasks; if in order to simulate a certain character it costs way too much or too little points; it blows it all out of the water for me. Regardless, it's all highly subjective.
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From:[info]matraia
Date:January 26th, 2006 10:28 pm (UTC)

Right tool for the right job

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First of all, I enjoyed reading how you view RPG's.

Thinking about the times when I've actually ran RPG settings I have to say a lot of my decision of which specific system to run depends on what emotional state I'm in and what sort of experience my players want. Some examples follow:

New gamers: D&D Basic set. A strange choice? Perhaps, but it introduces basic RPG mechanics without being too overwhelming (try watching new gamers look through the feat tables in D20 and get a glazed look) or too simple (Tri-stat system comes to mind). It also introduces all the dice an RPG player will probably use, with the possible exception of the D30. Also, by limiting them to just what's in the Basic set it avoids overwhelming the new player with more information than they need to know at that early stage. If they enjoy that setting but want something with more meat later I may go to one of the AD&D settings, depending on what they've enjoyed so far (Mechanics: AD&D 1st, Settings: AD&D 2nd, Character development: D20, More 'realistic' setting: Harn(!))

Horror: If the players want to be weak, Call of Cthulhu. If they want to be the horror, Vampire: The Dark Ages. I've squicked folks running Tzimisce in the latter game and I love the intellectual level necessary to do 'well' in CoC.

Humor: Paranoia. Doesn't matter the edition. I get sadistic glee both playing and running that game.

Post-Apocalyptic: The End. It may be D20, but the setting rocks and I like the theological twist it is based upon.

'Magic' heavy: Mage: The Ascension, anything past 1st ed. I like the flexibility of the magic system and the 'biting back' of paradox. I've been eyeballing a few others though, as I have a fondness for this area. (Nephilim).

Space RPG's and Superhero RPG's I've never had an enjoyable experience with. They devolve into Star Wars or Star Trek in the case of the former, or become overly twinkish in the case of the latter. Then again I haven't ran them specifically.

What would be your recommendations for those genres/themes, or are you one to more take the very rules-lite systems and stretch them into the particular mold a la FUDGE?

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From:[info]zamiel
Date:January 27th, 2006 01:26 am (UTC)

Re: Right tool for the right job

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Let's take it a point at a time:

New Gamers: I pretty much have to go the opposite direction from you on my means of introducing folks to gaming. D&D Basic is good ... but not for new gamers. I prefer to teach my newbies to not look to the mechanics to define either their characters or the setting; I'm very much a "you tell me" kind of GM, as in:

"Is there a table I can jump up on?"

"You tell me."

"How about a back window I can throw this guy out of?"

"You tell me."

Tri-Stat/BESM 1st Edition was one of the most newbie-friendly systems I ever worked with, but these days I tend to jump right into Wushu. There's a few minutes of blinking to begin with, but I find it works much better at drawing out even the most reticent new player, and jumps them right into the "I'm a protagonist" mindset that I need to enjoy running or playing in a game.

I'd really love to try Capes with newbies at some point; the GM-less approach might be useful.

Horror: Any setting and system can do horror, but the best setting for it I've ever found was Kult 1st Edition. I like to describe it as "Like Call of Cthulhu, but without the sense of hope." That said, I've run horror in nearly every system I own, including Heavy Gear. Its a style and an approach more than a mechanical requirement.

Humour: Toon. Its hard to beat the self-awareness and system minimal structure of the game, and it does exactly what it thinks it should, leaving the rest to the players. I appreciate the trust. I've had plans to run a humourous kung-fu epic using Wushu for a while, I just haven't had the time or group.

[cont]

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From:[info]zamiel
Date:January 27th, 2006 01:27 am (UTC)

Re: Right tool for the right job

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Post-Apocalyptic: Strangely, for pretty much all of the modern/post-modern "realistic" settings of this nature, I reach for All Flesh Must Be Eaten and/or Buffy. The Unisystem mechanics, particularly in the Buffy case, are sleek enough to stay out of my way, but structured enough that you can let them define things. My preference, however, is to use Wushu, actually; yes, it gives the players unparalleled freedom to accomplish unrealistic tasks, but if everyone's on the same page about appropriate narration, it works better than systems in which characters are more mechanically entwined (not least being because Wushu lets you get dice for narrating your own failure).

Magic: Having actually been published under the Mage imprint, I wouldn't run it if you held ivory knitting needles at my eyes as a threat. If I really want a system and setting that covers magic tightly and with style, I have to go with Ars Magica. Given my druthers, 2nd edition, but I can play any of them. The sheer amount of detail with which magic is handled, including study, writing books, etc, is wonderful if you intend that to be a focus of your game, and the way multiple-characters per player are expected rather than unusual was an eye-opener back in the days it was first released.

Space: Jovian Chronicles. No question. I tend to like my spacecraft and giant robots crunchy on occasion, and JC does it like no one else. If we're talking about a deliberately more space-fantasy feel, any of the fantasy systems I enjoy will suffice.

Superheros: This is the genre that has seen a lot of development in recent years, and with good reason. In a very real sense, most other genre settings are superheroic under the hood, in terms of expectation and style. Truth & Justice is a fantastic take on the genre, and Capes goes even beyond that level to an entirely different kind of RPG.

Mind you, I could easily take Fudge and hybridize it with anything at hand to produce a usable and effective system, but with so many good sources to build from, why not start there?

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From:[info]matraia
Date:January 27th, 2006 02:09 am (UTC)

Re: Right tool for the right job

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I will take your replies to heart. I believe that my reliance on mechanics stems from the fact that my first RPG book I bought was the AD&D second edition DMG (was cheaper than the others so I thought I could entice my mother better into helping me getting it). Trying to decipher that thing without a PHB or a MM was quite impossible. Then, when I got older, my RPG group in high school only had D&D and AD&D 1st, with many wonderful classic modules and a few adventures of our own besides. I didn't get into WW until college.

It seems I must check out Wushu. The only rules-light system I own is Universalis, which has been on loan to Misty for some time now. Also, you may find Morton's List interesting, especially with the suppliment added.
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From:[info]zamiel
Date:January 27th, 2006 03:42 am (UTC)

Re: Right tool for the right job

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See, this is exactly why I don't like to start my newbies on D&D. Too much cranial damage lingers and I end up having to clean it up, later, so they can go, "Wow, that's ... nuts."

Wushu run well hinges on something I actually learned in Nobilis, which is "Yes, exactly what you said happened, happens ... Now what do you do?" The underlying assumption is that unless something gets veto'd by another player, that's just what happens. Want to run across the heads of a crowd, do an inverted helicopter kick, spin around thrice and pop a toe in the eye of the Big Bad that you've been hunting for months? Sure thing, and that particular move is worth 5 dice, if you were wondering. Once you get players into the mindset that what they say is what they do, things actually end up flowing more smoothly, because there's no question of "will the dice screw me on this?"

Its a wholly different state of play, and one I've become very fond of.

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From:[info]dellarte
Date:January 27th, 2006 07:46 am (UTC)

My lousy 2 cents

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Love the detailed answers you gave, and I shall continue to worship you for the many things that you say in this regard. Oh hell, I would anyways.

I am a plot whore, I admit it and I like to see how many DM’s/GM’s/Storytellers used their noggin to create not a realistic campaign but at least a plausible campaign based on the systems setting and PC abilities offered. So, my views will be different than many others.

New gamers: Shadowrun 2.0 It is unusual but has a strong archetype core that can help the newest of gamers see what can be done and how to manipulate. Rules are seriously simple (almost too simple at times) giving a GM flexibility without having to herd PC’s into a plot. {Nothing is worse than a GM fiat to get a plot going} AD&D 2nd Edition if you want a more traditional fantasy setting, but beware of kits and special races. I would suggest only Players Manual races and classes for noobs. But the mechanics are there, I cant argue with the long term pull of the game. And well, D&D 3.5 is just Diablo in book form, I am not a fan, to me a lot of balance was tossed out the window with this resurrection.

Horror: Call of Cthulhu for the intellectual minds out there. If you have a good Storyteller I always go for Vampire (no matter what edition, sue me). And if you have the will to do lots of research and the cash for a ton of books Rifts: South America, Rifts: Atlantis and Rifts: England. All have a great sense of gothic etching. And last but not least the defunked and out of print Shattered Dreams (I am willing to pay cash for any copy, in almost any condition) because in dreams almost anything can happen, and with Nightmares as an entity it could lend a sense of lingering fear with the players after lights went out.

Humor: Toon, enough said. I didn’t get much exposure to this one but I found it to be a riot.

Post-Apocalyptic: If it were in print I would go with OMEGA (the brainchild of me and another person for 5 years) but as it has never been published I will have to be the person to say Shadowrun 2.0 again. I like the concept, I like the system.

'Magic' heavy: Mage: The Ascension, with that name you know its heavy on magic. The idea of paradox was innovative and gives a real sense of reward for thinking rather than just acting. Also a favorite for the whole magic (I am also including picnics here as well) would be Darksun, if playing a Preserver or Defiler you faced many more challenges wrought by the landscape. For me it makes things more interesting, relying on wits once again rather than sheer power.

Space RPG's and Superhero RPG's : I have never ran or experienced the Superhero RPG’s other than flipping through Heros and Villains Unlimited, albeit was Palladium it was a bit muddled for hero/villain creation. Sometimes you don’t know how they (sic Superbeings) came about. Space however falls to Rifts and Man hunter (also made by Palladium) but I will not extol my adoration of them as you have already heard.


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